Another member of the Group of 8 Cardinals makes the news – Church must “repent of scaremongering hell,” according to Cardinal Marx November 18, 2013
Posted by Tantumblogo in Basics, disconcerting, episcopate, error, Four Last Things, General Catholic, Papa, sadness, scandals, secularism, shocking, Society, the return.trackback
I’d have to say, with a name like that, I’d think twice before giving him a red hat. But that’s just me, and certainly patently unfair. But still……
Another member of the group of 8 “super-cardinals” appointed to advise Pope Francis on the future of the Church and, especially, further implementing Vatican II’s ostensible calls for a great new “collegiality” in the Church, has said some disconcerting things. Cardinal Marx has criticized the Church’s past presentations on hell, according to an article on the German site Katholisches translated by Tancred at Eponymous Flower (I add comments):
The resurrection says the Cardinal, that God gives us the assurance that He will transform and lead us with His help to the end, “but without moralizing and without a hell of torture, imprisonment and a burning oven”. The Church caused this with pictures like that of purgatory and hell, fear of death. Not only that, the Church must “repent” for this scaremongering images that a malicious invention [so, images of hell painted so well by great Saints like Alphonsus Liguori were just “malicious inventions?”] will be obvious to Catholics……”and for that we need to repent.” And you wonder where the Cardinal actually lives. After half a century of the abolition of the sign of hell, the problem is not the [excessive, overly negative] belief that there is a hell, but that many Christians no longer believe in the existence of hell and purgatory. [and many have been helped on their way in this rejection by many perhaps well meaning but severely deluded priests and prelates]
Finally, the Cardinal proffered a logical conclusion to universal salvation: Because Jesus went about not to enumerate sins, but to pledge every man to healing and salvation. “The Church must completely drive out fear ,” emphasized Cardinal Marx. To imagine what would come after death, the person needs images, “but this must be images of confidence, hope, images and help to continue on, even if they can not give us a definitive answer.” What the Archbishop did was give the impression that the Church has not allowed in its two thousand year history, a great show to salvation, redemption and salvation of souls. [But this is precisely the program that has led to the utter collapse of the Faith. First of all, hell is real and souls go there, we have the assurance of Our Blessed Lord Himself on this matter. The entire Doctrine of the Church is oriented around this reality, and the avoidance of it for as many souls as possible. But practically speaking, collapse in belief in the reality of hell is directly correlated with the collapse in the practice of the Faith and all indicators of that practice: Mass attendance, material support for the Church, reception of the other Sacraments, number of people claiming to be Catholic, etc., etc. This is the same post-VII program we’ve been getting for decades, and it is directly related to the collapse of the Faith. Disbelief in hell, if not the only cause of the collapse, is one of the prime reasons causes.]
However, the church follows the true teachings of Jesus Incarnate, which also says, “I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him, which can not only kill, but has the power even to throw you into Hell. Yes, I say unto you, Ye shall fear him “(Luke 12:5).. Or in his Mount Olive Discourse: “Then he will turn to the on the left side and say unto them, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Mt 25, 41)Christianity is realistic demonstration of creation, human nature and God’s work of salvation. The denial of hell and purgatory is a betrayal of Christ and the believer. Whoever preaches a universal salvation, is in danger of leading people astray and will make them lose their souls.
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This man’s theology is more frightening than Hell itself. Lord have Mercy!
And he is a Prince of the Church and one of the eight appointed to advise Pope Francis.
So why can’t you call him a (material) heretic? (if he did actually teach universal salvation)
That’s not my judgment to make. We can’t judge our spiritual superiors in that manner, that is not our place, according to the Angelic Doctor. But we can express concern and ask questions, certainly.
Plus, I would need to see more evidence than one or two somewhat clumsily translated news reports about him and what he believes.
Yes, it is your judgment to make, Our Lord told us to beware of false prophets and to judge them by their fruits (Matt. 7: 20). St. Robert Bellarmine also said: “for men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple, and condemn him as a heretic.” (De Romano Pontifice, II, 30). Prohibition of judging refers only to things that are uncertain, where we may not have all the facts or where there may be another explanation. That is obviously not the case here if he really said that.
Right. Precisely the point. If he did say it, cite it and call him a material heretic. If he didn’t, don’t print something that suggests that he did. I think this type of policy helps avoid scandal.
I don’t think the ONLY things that can be covered are formal declarations which a lay person hasn’t the power to make, anyway. Why don’t you just say what you really mean……shut up?
This conversation will not go forward.
Last year Cardinal Marx said that one can´t insult God at all during a so called “blasphemy controversial” and the discussion if Germany needs a law that forbids blasphemy. He said that such a law could therefore only protect the feelings of the believers of every religion.
http://www.rundschau-online.de/politik/blasphemie-streit–gott-kann-man-gar-nicht-beleidigen-,15184890,16800970.html
Back then I asked myself what in his opinion is the reason why we don´t live anymore in the Garden of Eden and wondered if he had ever heard of Anselm of Canterbury´s “Cur Deus Homo” (Why God became man)..
And yes, the he really said what eponymous flower reported.
Just one small correction. According to the Catholic international press agency (kipa) he didn´t say:
“Because Jesus went about not to enumerate sins, but to pledge every man to healing and salvation.”
but:
Denn Gott gehe es nicht darum, Sünden aufzuzählen, sondern jedem Menschen Heil und Rettung zuzusagen.
God isn´t concerned with enumerating sins, but to assure every human being.of salvation and redemption.
http://kipa-apic.ch/index.php?pw=&na=0,0,0,0,d&ki=248582
So, the Church has been wrong all these centuries until Cardinal Marx appeared to straighten us out? Is that it?
Hmmm…I guess according to Cardinal Marx we need to ditch one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit: Fear of the Lord. “Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” says Proverbs…me thinks that is the source of Cardinal Marx’s walk-about into heresy…his lack of reverential fear of God Almighty. May the Lord have mercy on him and open his eyes before he meets the possible reality of what he refuses to admit. God bless~
Wait just a doggone minute!!!!! REPENT OF THE SCAREMONGERING OF HELL? What need there be of repentance, when there is no hell????? Hmmmmm? How dare this man tell me to repent!
Said it before and I’ll say it again, Francis put some of these into the group of eight to keep close watch on them. Then Francis had this to say today, h/t Fr. Z.
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Pope Francis on “progressives”
Posted on 18 November 2013 by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf
This morning Pope Francis didn’t exactly sound like a reader of the National Schismatic Reporter.
God save us from the “hegemonic uniformity ” of the “one line of thought”, “fruit of the spirit of the world that negotiates everything”, even the faith. This was Pope Francis’ prayer during mass this morning at Casa Santa Marta, commenting on a passage from the Book of Maccabees, in which the leaders of the people do not want Israel to be isolated from other nations , and so abandon their traditions to negotiate with the king.
They go to “negotiate ” and are excited about it. It is as if they said “we are progressives; let’s follow progress like everyone else does”. As reported by Vatican Radio, the Pope noted that this is the “spirit of adolescent progressivism” according to which “any move forward and any choice is better than remaining within the routine of fidelity”. These people, therefore , negotiate “loyalty to God who is always faithful” with the king. “This is called apostasy”, “adultery.” They are, in fact, negotiating their values??, “ negotiating the very essence of being faithful to the Lord .”
“And this is a contradiction: we do not negotiate values??, but faithfulness. And this is the fruit of the devil, the prince of this world , who leads us forward with the spirit of worldliness. And then there are the direct consequences. They accepted the habits of the pagan, then a further step: the king wrote to his whole kingdom that all should be one people, and everyone would abandon their customs. A globalizing conformity of all nations is not beautiful, rather, each with own customs but united, but it is the hegemonic uniformity of globalization, the single line of thought . And this single line of thought is the result of worldliness . “
Don’t forget Cardinal Pell either. He proposed the idea of an empty hell in his debate with Richard Dawkins.
Good grief. Another Modernist, spouting heresy.
God help us. Didn’t the Pope say somewhere that he choose the Cardinals who thought like him? If so, then I’m shuddering to think…
Heads up tantam, we in the Dio. of Ft Worth have a new bishop!
Do you know anything about him? Is he friendly to TLM?
Marx? I don’t think so.
Sorry, I was referring to Msgr Olson, Ft. Worth’s so to be new bishop. Did some surfing around the ole blogs, and Taylor Marshall seems to be over joyed by the news.
Standby one.
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This “prince” of the Church is just another clown who clearly enjoys the dress up, the money and the power. What is the Pope doing????